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Nov 12, 2012
11/12
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ronald reagan won a lowly landslide with no mandate in 1984. wasn't morning in america? there was a bear in the woods. walter mondale -- and he won 49 states. that is when tax reform became the centerpiece of his administration. >> ok, let's dig into the election. >> whether i have earned your vote or not, i have listened to you, i have learned from you, and you have made me a better president. >> at a time like this, we cannot risk partisan bickering. our leaders have to reach across the aisle to do the citizens work. >> an extremely gracious concession speech by gov. romney. romney lost the state where he was governor, the state where he votes, mass., some pundits have egg all over their faces. what made the difference with this, mark? >> when you run a good campaign, give credit to the campaign. there was an enormous effort. people disparaged the ground game. it was super. is surpassed anything we had seen before. and the president voiced that campaign. at the same time, in a year when americans were furious at pennsylvania avenue and wall street, the republicans chos
ronald reagan won a lowly landslide with no mandate in 1984. wasn't morning in america? there was a bear in the woods. walter mondale -- and he won 49 states. that is when tax reform became the centerpiece of his administration. >> ok, let's dig into the election. >> whether i have earned your vote or not, i have listened to you, i have learned from you, and you have made me a better president. >> at a time like this, we cannot risk partisan bickering. our leaders have to...
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Nov 20, 2012
11/12
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that's something ronald reagan and jack kemp find of figured out how at least to sell a generation ago and this generation of republicans has yet to figure out. >> i guess i was one of the takers with the student loans. i'm one of the 47%. howard fineman, thank you. i think we all went to school on loans. have a nice thanksgiving. >>> coming up, so much has been made of the fact that president obama got only 39% of the white vote in this country. national problem for the president? not really when you realize in deep south mississippi he got about 10%. a lot of his problem is in the south. it's just the historic problem the democratic party, white or black candidates have this problem having a tough time. also the battle for hillary's job. it's getting hot. it's the first big decision president obama has to make since his re-election. it looks like it's between john kerry and u.n. ambassador susan rice. will the president go with the 2004 presidential candidate or his apparent favorite? and a report from gaza and the latest on the fighting there that i think could lead to a war with ir
that's something ronald reagan and jack kemp find of figured out how at least to sell a generation ago and this generation of republicans has yet to figure out. >> i guess i was one of the takers with the student loans. i'm one of the 47%. howard fineman, thank you. i think we all went to school on loans. have a nice thanksgiving. >>> coming up, so much has been made of the fact that president obama got only 39% of the white vote in this country. national problem for the...
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Nov 15, 2012
11/12
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we haven't touched it since ronald reagan, really, in 1986. bill clinton didn't do so at one point, but we haven't done anything to reform are cool. this capital investment and the people, to follow our country in the competitive environment, and taxes is one of them. when you do that, you will get more revenue. it's guaranteed. again, it is sort of that thing we were talking about earlier. this is an opportunity for us as a country. and if you look at the congressional budget office analysis, what tax reform could mean in terms of macroeconomic impact of growth, i mean, all of them will lead to more growth, whether it is corporate tax reform or individual tax reform. >> he said this was fought over in the campaign and we fought over tax rates. rising tax rates. jay carney, the white house press secretary did say that the president will veto any bill that extends the current tax rates. so he insists that tax rates go up those making over $250,000. what would your recommendation be to the republican party in the senate? >> first, i believe the
we haven't touched it since ronald reagan, really, in 1986. bill clinton didn't do so at one point, but we haven't done anything to reform are cool. this capital investment and the people, to follow our country in the competitive environment, and taxes is one of them. when you do that, you will get more revenue. it's guaranteed. again, it is sort of that thing we were talking about earlier. this is an opportunity for us as a country. and if you look at the congressional budget office analysis,...
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Nov 19, 2012
11/12
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MSNBCW
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reagan in 1980. mitt romney was the ultimate remainder man. that's why they have an easier time of dumping on him right now. >> so the clown car has backed up to run over mitt romney. that's the image for the night tonight. >> yes, it is. >> like that woman who didn't like her husband, remember she drove over her husband in the parking lot and drove over him again. i don't want to get involved in that legal case but i do remember the pictures. let's go to john heilemann here. is this the clown car as howard beautifully put it backing up over the guy that outcorkoutdorm and won the election? >> some of these people are not certifiable clowns who are saying these things about romney though i don't disagree with howard's characterization in general. i do think -- >> gingrich -- >> i think it's fair to say that part of romney's problem was that he was really always an incredibly bad fit with the republican party on almost every level. he was not most of the things the republican party is today nor really
reagan in 1980. mitt romney was the ultimate remainder man. that's why they have an easier time of dumping on him right now. >> so the clown car has backed up to run over mitt romney. that's the image for the night tonight. >> yes, it is. >> like that woman who didn't like her husband, remember she drove over her husband in the parking lot and drove over him again. i don't want to get involved in that legal case but i do remember the pictures. let's go to john heilemann here....
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Nov 20, 2012
11/12
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see ronald reagan making the case not for legalization but for amnesty using that word. i think a majority of republicans are pro immigration that the have been afraid for the past six years about that lobby which has an incredible political machine and anybody that says anything constructive about immigration would be called the label primm st, and certainly some talk-show hosts. i think this election cycle has dramatically changed that. i can at least remember half a dozen talk shows had already said my position has evolved and now i am for immigration reform. but that is good because will give cover to a lot of republicans who have avoided this issue will want to deal with this issue to actually do it. so we have to reclaim the issue and we can do it because immigration reform is the conservative position. restriction is part of the nationalist protectionist paradigm and if we are the party of the family come if we are the party of the free market we should not in any way have a restriction as to position if we are for the family i don't see how -- i don't see why we
see ronald reagan making the case not for legalization but for amnesty using that word. i think a majority of republicans are pro immigration that the have been afraid for the past six years about that lobby which has an incredible political machine and anybody that says anything constructive about immigration would be called the label primm st, and certainly some talk-show hosts. i think this election cycle has dramatically changed that. i can at least remember half a dozen talk shows had...
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Nov 19, 2012
11/12
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what the party could learn from ronald reagan when it comes to the facing the next decade. a reagan biographer joins us with his take on all of this. >>> also, a statute of the late pope john paul ii igniting a controversy in rome. the makeover sparking a -- the uproar causing a hasty makeover. straight ahead. are you receiving a payout from a legal settlement or annuity over 10 or even 20 years? call imperial structured settlements. the experts at imperial can convert your long-term payout into a lump sum of cash today. tomato, obviously. haha. there's more than that though, there's a kick to it. wahlalalalallala! smooth, but crisp. it's kind of like drinking a food that's a drink, or a drink that's a food, woooooh! [ male announcer ] taste it and describe the indescribable. could've had a v8. jenna: talk about the fiscal cliff and the economy, we wanted to show you what's happening with the dow this week. holiday week normally is light trading, but you can see the dow is rallying more than 170 points after a few tough weeks on wall street. a couple reasons for this, we ha
what the party could learn from ronald reagan when it comes to the facing the next decade. a reagan biographer joins us with his take on all of this. >>> also, a statute of the late pope john paul ii igniting a controversy in rome. the makeover sparking a -- the uproar causing a hasty makeover. straight ahead. are you receiving a payout from a legal settlement or annuity over 10 or even 20 years? call imperial structured settlements. the experts at imperial can convert your long-term...
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Nov 15, 2012
11/12
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KRCB
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i thought ronald reagan had a fairly successful second term and bill clinton's was marred by his own personal issues. second trerms difficult. w. had a dficult time. one of the things i think they underestimate at the white house and the treasury is the idea of doing tax reform. when you both were probably in preschool, i was covering the '85, '86, tax reform act, and to call it heavy lifting is an understatement. it took a savvy, smart treasury secretary, jim baker, working with capitol hill and a supportive president, and democrats and republicans. i don't see any of those ingredients today to do tax reform in 2013, 2014. >> especially ifhe esident going to have a new treasury secretary. itim geithner, this has sort of been his-- tim geithner wanted to be behind tax reform, wanted to be the force behind corporate tax reform. that might speak to tim geithner staying on a little long fer they think they can get something done in the first six months. >> why is anything different now? why is anything different in the second term? >> good point. >> i'll turn the hosting to you. >> mart
i thought ronald reagan had a fairly successful second term and bill clinton's was marred by his own personal issues. second trerms difficult. w. had a dficult time. one of the things i think they underestimate at the white house and the treasury is the idea of doing tax reform. when you both were probably in preschool, i was covering the '85, '86, tax reform act, and to call it heavy lifting is an understatement. it took a savvy, smart treasury secretary, jim baker, working with capitol hill...
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Nov 14, 2012
11/12
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think of ronald reagan and tip o'neill reforming social security. ronald reagan and tip o'neill doing the last comprehensive tax reform. bill clinton and republican congress doing welfare reform and balancing the budget. we look forward to making this divided government productive for the american people. and we have, of course, as everyone well knows, a lot of challenges here at the end of the year. i'll be meeting with the president and the other leadership on friday to talk about the way forward. and we look forward to being a part of the solution to these significant problems. it's my plesh shoe now to turn to our newly elected whip, senator john cornyn of texas. >> thanks, mitch. it's an honor to be elected by my colleagues to serve as the whip. the assistant leader on the republican side. as leader mcconnell said, we have a lot of very difficult work to do, but we are committed to working with our colleagues across the aisle to solving the nation's urgent problems. we know what those are in the lame duck. we know what those are going forward.
think of ronald reagan and tip o'neill reforming social security. ronald reagan and tip o'neill doing the last comprehensive tax reform. bill clinton and republican congress doing welfare reform and balancing the budget. we look forward to making this divided government productive for the american people. and we have, of course, as everyone well knows, a lot of challenges here at the end of the year. i'll be meeting with the president and the other leadership on friday to talk about the way...
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Nov 15, 2012
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he went in there with one goal, like ronald reagan used to do, i want one headline, don't let the middle class be held hostage. he repeated it over and over again. >> reporter: he said it 19 times. >> he didn't want the headline to be switched by adversarial press or neutral press that didn't to want go with his line to say him, adamant, president adamant on rich paying 39.6%. maybe that's why you softened up to you. just an interpretation. >> reporter: i can tell you congressional republicans were happy with his response. they like to know there is some give. here's where the give could be, chris. nobody's talked about this. i mean, there's been some behind the scenes chatter on this, which is you could see tax rates temporarily go up just not all the way to 39%. it could be somewhere in the middle. ends up being the compromise for the one year. don't forget, this is all about setting the tax rates simply for 2013, while they negotiate larger tax reform. so, that could be what the wiggle room is. obviously, republicans have said they don't want to raise tax rates at all. they're fine wi
he went in there with one goal, like ronald reagan used to do, i want one headline, don't let the middle class be held hostage. he repeated it over and over again. >> reporter: he said it 19 times. >> he didn't want the headline to be switched by adversarial press or neutral press that didn't to want go with his line to say him, adamant, president adamant on rich paying 39.6%. maybe that's why you softened up to you. just an interpretation. >> reporter: i can tell you...
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Nov 15, 2012
11/12
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think of ronald reagan and tip o'neill reforming social security. ron reagan and tip o'neill during the current tax reform. bill clinton and the republican congress doing welfare reform and balancing the budget. we look forward to making this divided government productive for the american people, and we have, as everyone knows, a lot of challenges at the end of the year. i will be meeting with the president and the other leadership on friday to talk about the way forward. we look forward to being a part of the solution to the significant problems. it is my pleasure to turn to our newly elected whip, senator john cornyn of texas. >> is an honor to serve as the assistant leader on the republican side. we have a lot of very difficult work to do, but we are committed to working with our colleagues across the aisle to solve the nation's urgent problems. we know what those are in the lame duck and we know what those are going forward. there is no mystery about that, nor is there any mystery to some of the solutions based on the president's own bipartisan
think of ronald reagan and tip o'neill reforming social security. ron reagan and tip o'neill during the current tax reform. bill clinton and the republican congress doing welfare reform and balancing the budget. we look forward to making this divided government productive for the american people, and we have, as everyone knows, a lot of challenges at the end of the year. i will be meeting with the president and the other leadership on friday to talk about the way forward. we look forward to...
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Nov 17, 2012
11/12
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CNNW
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we saw with ronald reagan and bill clinton. with a second term and a better economy, you can achieve a lot and become quite popular in the process? does obama have that in him? what do you want him to do now that he has four more years? >> the big thing he has going for him, he has four years he doesn't have to worry about getting re-elected. they start these elections about two years ahead of time usually. and that's where their focus goes on how do i keep doing this job, whether i'm a senator, congressman, or whatever it is, if you are a career politician, you always look out for yourself first. when the president's in this position, having been elected a second time, now he has nothing to lose. >> where do you you this he's been weak and where does he need to be stronger? >> i think he's been weak. my son was a huge obama supporter until obama ordered that american's death with the drone and then he lost my son. my son was so offended that a president could kill a united states citizen without a trial, without anything like
we saw with ronald reagan and bill clinton. with a second term and a better economy, you can achieve a lot and become quite popular in the process? does obama have that in him? what do you want him to do now that he has four more years? >> the big thing he has going for him, he has four years he doesn't have to worry about getting re-elected. they start these elections about two years ahead of time usually. and that's where their focus goes on how do i keep doing this job, whether i'm a...
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Nov 13, 2012
11/12
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that all happened this day in 1979 when former california governor ronald reagan announced his third bid for the presidency and for the republican nomination and, of course, that one was successful. >>> the scandal continues to grow around david tpetraeus as his successor general john allen is now linked to the controversy or at least linked to some of the players. let's bring in our panel, political director for the grio.com, and columnist with bloomberg view, and stephanie is the president of emily's list and i also have james from the national journal who is out with a brand-new piece on this entire episode. so, james, i want to start with you because i thought this was a very striking -- you sort of write about -- trying to write about this from 30,000 feet, the impact on national security. this is what you write, no one is condoning what petraeus did, but there are a lot of self-righteous people holding him to a standard that not many people could meet without considering what he sacrificed because of the years of separation from his spouse and family, said one army general. the
that all happened this day in 1979 when former california governor ronald reagan announced his third bid for the presidency and for the republican nomination and, of course, that one was successful. >>> the scandal continues to grow around david tpetraeus as his successor general john allen is now linked to the controversy or at least linked to some of the players. let's bring in our panel, political director for the grio.com, and columnist with bloomberg view, and stephanie is the...
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Nov 12, 2012
11/12
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FOXNEWS
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democrat just lost two elections in a row to ronald reagan. what did we do? we nominated michael dukakis who is a fine man but a liberal from massachusetts. it took three beatings for to us realize you have to make common cause of moderates. that is the internal struggle the republican have to go through. true to principle on fiscal issues but if they embrace the far right social agenda it drives off the young people and alienate single women and suburban women and you see it in the numbers. >> senator, in your state of indiana -- >> can i say one last thing? if i could just get -- if i could say one last thing. please continue to nominate people for public office talking about women being rap rapeed. >> won by only five points such a bad year. republicans should not kid themselves. republican lost 25 of 33 senate seats. republicans gained back the seats easy to gain back when no other new state at the presidential level. obama had a tough economy, glow gone from the first term, and all of that. republicans lost the national household by half a million votes.
democrat just lost two elections in a row to ronald reagan. what did we do? we nominated michael dukakis who is a fine man but a liberal from massachusetts. it took three beatings for to us realize you have to make common cause of moderates. that is the internal struggle the republican have to go through. true to principle on fiscal issues but if they embrace the far right social agenda it drives off the young people and alienate single women and suburban women and you see it in the numbers....
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Nov 15, 2012
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pending that let me say he and i have been great friends since he was a speechwriter for ronald reagan. we have worked closely on a wide range of things. and i just told him, mr. speaker, since i'm leaving congress, he's taught me one thing and one thing only, and that is how to make margaritas. with that i'm happy to yield to my friend, mr. rohrabacher. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman is recognized for three minutes. mr. rohrabacher: i rise in support of the rule and this legislation and note that the classified nature of that margarita formula should never be disclosed to an enemy of the united states, of course, but we will be glad to transmit that information to our colleagues on the other side of the aisle. in the spirit of bipartisanship. i do rise in support of this rule and h.r. 6156. the legislation to grant permanent normal trade relations status to russia. during the 19 0's as was just mentioned, i worked for ronald reagan in the white house and was part of a team dedicating itselves to bring down the soviet dictatorship. i might add that dave dryor was a member of th
pending that let me say he and i have been great friends since he was a speechwriter for ronald reagan. we have worked closely on a wide range of things. and i just told him, mr. speaker, since i'm leaving congress, he's taught me one thing and one thing only, and that is how to make margaritas. with that i'm happy to yield to my friend, mr. rohrabacher. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman is recognized for three minutes. mr. rohrabacher: i rise in support of the rule and this legislation...
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Nov 20, 2012
11/12
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and what ronald reagan thinks or what oliver north or i think or anybody else thinks makes not a thing if the american people say enough. there comes a point that the views of the american people have to be heard. >> warren rudman saw action and was awarded a bronze star for combat in korea. he once told former defense secretary casper weinberger from his own party his talk of a, quote, limited nuclear war was assanine. he did not seek re-election saying i can see the republican party was being taken over by a movement conservatives and self-commissioned christian soldier whose social agenda i found repugnant. he was 82 years old. he died of lymphoma. band playin] [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it... in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. great taste. mmm... [ male announcer ] sounds good. it's amazing what soup can do. time for citi price rewind. because your daughter really wants that pink castle thing. and you really don't want to pay more than you have to. only citi
and what ronald reagan thinks or what oliver north or i think or anybody else thinks makes not a thing if the american people say enough. there comes a point that the views of the american people have to be heard. >> warren rudman saw action and was awarded a bronze star for combat in korea. he once told former defense secretary casper weinberger from his own party his talk of a, quote, limited nuclear war was assanine. he did not seek re-election saying i can see the republican party was...
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Nov 17, 2012
11/12
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ronald reagan made his progress with the soviets in the second term. bill clinton almost got a middle east peace deal in the second term. so i do think there's a sense when you look abroad the president has more opportunities to leave a mark. >> john do you think, those that the scandal involving cia director former cia director david petraeus could derail the efforts he's trying to get going here? >> this one won't derail it but it's a very good example of the kind of thing that tends to turn up for season in more in a second term. you know iran-contra for president reagan rather famously president clinton's impeachment was in the second term. so it may not be this one, but, you know there is kind of a coincidence that time consuming scandals do pop up in those last four years. >> it's interesting you bring up legacy. one of the issues with the fiscal cliff is what kind of legacy would john boehner or the president leave behind when they leave office if they can't get a deal done and what about a second term compromising and going your own route. >> t
ronald reagan made his progress with the soviets in the second term. bill clinton almost got a middle east peace deal in the second term. so i do think there's a sense when you look abroad the president has more opportunities to leave a mark. >> john do you think, those that the scandal involving cia director former cia director david petraeus could derail the efforts he's trying to get going here? >> this one won't derail it but it's a very good example of the kind of thing that...
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Nov 20, 2012
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how can the republican party become a big party again, how it was under ronald reagan? i feel the republican party is slowly becoming a smaller and smaller party and throwing people out like me or other republicans saying you're not a real republican or things like that. and the democratic party is going the opposite direction. they were the small party in the 1980's and late 1970's. now they are the inclusive party bringing in latinos -- and blacks beforehand, and all these other groups. how can the republican party switch and start to be more inclusive? >> why don't we take the first question first? anybody want to address that? >> the visa, the process is broken. i would like to give an example. the entire agriculture community, growing fruits and vegetables to anything agricultural, thousands and thousands of pieces are applied for. less than 2% of their entire work force is approved for visa. there's a 50% foreign work force in major-league baseball and 100% of their visas are improved. who does more for the economy? that shows how broken our system is there are so
how can the republican party become a big party again, how it was under ronald reagan? i feel the republican party is slowly becoming a smaller and smaller party and throwing people out like me or other republicans saying you're not a real republican or things like that. and the democratic party is going the opposite direction. they were the small party in the 1980's and late 1970's. now they are the inclusive party bringing in latinos -- and blacks beforehand, and all these other groups. how...
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Nov 14, 2012
11/12
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so eisenhower, fdr, ronald reagan and barack obama. i think the idea that barack obama does not have a historic mandate when 44 men have been president and seven did what he did in two terms, he got 69 million votes the first time, 62 million votes the second time, i think he has a mandate. the things to be done that are great in this election happened to fall on the progressive side, in part because the republican party and conservatism has gone so far right things that used to be centrist, like environmentalism, which was a teddy roosevelt thing which even richard nixon was in favor of. >> john mccain. >> newt gingrich. >> these things have been now reclassed as liberal, right. the victories that the president has a chance to get which are historic, like on climate change, on immigration, are now progressive ideas because they've been left behind. >> it's now almost up to the republican party to grab a piece of that pie to say this is our victory too when in reality if they had done it earlier -- >> let's don't get in debate about th
so eisenhower, fdr, ronald reagan and barack obama. i think the idea that barack obama does not have a historic mandate when 44 men have been president and seven did what he did in two terms, he got 69 million votes the first time, 62 million votes the second time, i think he has a mandate. the things to be done that are great in this election happened to fall on the progressive side, in part because the republican party and conservatism has gone so far right things that used to be centrist,...
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Nov 18, 2012
11/12
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>> ronald reagan said, i will not hold your youth and inexperience against you. >> and later, why unlikely bedfellows are teaming up to make sure the littlest americans don't get neglected in the fiscal cliff standoff. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics. ♪ i'd do anything for you, dear ♪ ♪ anything, yes, i'd do anything ♪ ♪ anything for you ♪ and you learned something along the way. this is the age of knowing what you're made of. so, why let erectile dysfunction get in your way? talk to your doctor about viagra. 20 million men already have. ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action. viagra. talk to your doctor. see if america's most prescrib
>> ronald reagan said, i will not hold your youth and inexperience against you. >> and later, why unlikely bedfellows are teaming up to make sure the littlest americans don't get neglected in the fiscal cliff standoff. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics. ♪ i'd do anything for you, dear ♪ ♪ anything, yes, i'd do anything ♪ ♪ anything for you ♪ and you learned something along the way. this is the age of knowing what you're made of. so, why let erectile...
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Nov 18, 2012
11/12
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bush and before that president ronald reagan. we have to talk about action. with what the president said, it sounded very logical. he said many of the right things. the one challenge i would have for the democrats, which is something that we have to -- they need to come to grips with it as well -- is that when i hear, for example, the president talking about immigration, we tend to talk about it as a onetime situation. we secure the border, and then we take care -- we have a path to legalization. we take care of the kids. we have a dream act. we have done it. that is only half of the job, maybe even less. the big challenge is where do we go from here? are our caps big enough? i will give you an example. in agriculture it takes four months to get a permit to work as a temporary worker because you have to go through agencies and bureaucracy. in for months, your harvest is gone. it does not work for the marketplace. i would like to hear the president talking about where the democrats are also willing to go in the future, and to think about this as an economic, s
bush and before that president ronald reagan. we have to talk about action. with what the president said, it sounded very logical. he said many of the right things. the one challenge i would have for the democrats, which is something that we have to -- they need to come to grips with it as well -- is that when i hear, for example, the president talking about immigration, we tend to talk about it as a onetime situation. we secure the border, and then we take care -- we have a path to...
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Nov 12, 2012
11/12
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democrats had lost two elections in a row to ronald reagan. and what did we do? nominated michael dukakis, a fine man but a liberal from massachusetts and the internal struggle republicans will go through, they have to be true to their principles, particularly on economic and fiscal issues but when they embrace the far right social agenda it drives off young people and it does alienate single women and suburban women... >> senator, i mean, your state -- >> what i'm saying -- >> republican governor. >> chris: wait, wait, wait. >> one last thing, please continue to nominate people for public office who talk about women being raped and that being god's will. >>... actually a great -- won by only five points, and republicans should not kid themselves, they lost 25 to 33 senate seats and republicans gained back the two states easy to gain back and no other new state at the presidential level and obama had a tough economy and, the glow was gone from the first temrm and republicans los the national house, and redistricting and democratic voters are more concentrated in
democrats had lost two elections in a row to ronald reagan. and what did we do? nominated michael dukakis, a fine man but a liberal from massachusetts and the internal struggle republicans will go through, they have to be true to their principles, particularly on economic and fiscal issues but when they embrace the far right social agenda it drives off young people and it does alienate single women and suburban women... >> senator, i mean, your state -- >> what i'm saying --...